Recomended Fuel?

Klurejr said:
What Octane fuel do you guys run in your bikes?

Being in California we do not have access to the really good stuff except for a few rare gas stations.

I put in the top Grand 91 octane for the first fill up, but can I get away with the 87 octane?
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Hi Klurejr, I ran 98 here in NZ = 93 in US. I got some preignition on 91 (87US). Yamaha say go up a grade if you get some preignition. I run 91(87) regular in my lawn mower (Briggs & Stratton) but my Fazer loves the higher octane and gives great performance with my mods. 98 here costs $2.25/L NZ and 91 is $2.10/L NZ. ;)
 
Thanks for the replies, I have put in 3 tanks now at 87 Octane, and everything seems to be running great. I may try the method of doing every 5th tank as premium grade to help keep the injectors clean, etc, etc, etc. It is not that much more expensive to do it that way.
 
Klurejr said:
Thanks for the replies, I have put in 3 tanks now at 87 Octane, and everything seems to be running great. I may try the method of doing every 5th tank as premium grade to help keep the injectors clean, etc, etc, etc. It is not that much more expensive to do it that way.
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Do your research first because the whole additive thing is deemed to be a bit of a farce perpetrated by the marketing folks at the oil companies. Sell the higher octane fuel as a 'better' fuel and rake in the profits. That's why people always say they 'spoil' their bike/car/whatever with 'the good stuff'. Brainwashed by the profit-mongers :)

I will never use more than the manufacturer's recommended fuel unless something has been changed that requires it
 
Dustin said:
Do your research first because the whole additive thing is deemed to be a bit of a farce perpetrated by the marketing folks at the oil companies. Sell the higher octane fuel as a 'better' fuel and rake in the profits. That's why people always say they 'spoil' their bike/car/whatever with 'the good stuff'. Brainwashed by the profit-mongers :)

I will never use more than the manufacturer's recommended fuel unless something has been changed that requires it
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When you collapse the skirts of your pistons from detonation you can't hear you might think differently. 20 cents a gallon which equates to roughly 90 cents a tank on an fz1 is worth not having the possibility of detonation!
 
Jamieb said:
When you collapse the skirts of your pistons from detonation you can't hear you might think differently. 20 cents a gallon which equates to roughly 90 cents a tank on an fz1 is worth not having the possibility of detonation!
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If your getting detonation on 87 grade in then you probably have bigger problems then the gas.

I run 87 and have never had a single problem. Now if Yamaha USA said to run 91 then I would. But they don't at least not on my Cal bike.

But If I was to upgrade the engine and end up with higher compression then I can see making the move to 91 octane which is the highest we get here in So Cal. But other then that there is just no reason I can see for doing it.

Has anyone documented a single engine failure due to running the octane that Yamaha suggests?
 
Regular fuel (87 here in the U.S.) is all our bikes need or want if they are tuned correctly. By that I mean they are getting the proper fueling (A/F ratio not too lean) and ignition timing correct. I'm amazed, as much as the subject has been slaughtered, that so many people tend to call higher octane fuel the "good stuff" and regular the "cheap stuff". The price may be different, but that moniker leaves people to have a displaced value to different fuel types. What we commonly call knocking is cause by excess heat in the combustion chamber NOT the compression ratio. A head that has poor design may be far more prone to detination because of heat, even at a relatively low CR than and well designed head at a far higher CR. If this weren't ture, Harleys would never has a problem (9:1 CR or so) and the FZ1 would never get beyond the end of the block. This is a simplification, but when someone thinks they are experiencing knocking, looking at what's causing the heat problem will take care of it faster than adding expensive fuel additives.
 
Lonerider59 said:
Regular fuel (87 here in the U.S.) is all our bikes need or want if they are tuned correctly. By that I mean they are getting the proper fueling (A/F ratio not too lean) and ignition timing correct. I'm amazed, as much as the subject has been slaughtered, that so many people tend to call higher octane fuel the "good stuff" and regular the "cheap stuff". The price may be different, but that moniker leaves people to have a displaced value to different fuel types. What we commonly call knocking is cause by excess heat in the combustion chamber NOT the compression ratio. A head that has poor design may be far more prone to detination because of heat, even at a relatively low CR than and well designed head at a far higher CR. If this weren't ture, Harleys would never has a problem (9:1 CR or so) and the FZ1 would never get beyond the end of the block. This is a simplification, but when someone thinks they are experiencing knocking, looking at what's causing the heat problem will take care of it faster than adding expensive fuel additives.
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Higher octane fuel is "the good stuff" , the higher octane rating is a direct result of the additional refinement of the fuel therefore removing more of the contaminants in the fuel itself. The immediate result is a cleaner burn resulting in less deposits on valves, pistons, combustion chambers,etc. These deposits over time will lower the performance and reliability of an engine. Predetonation on the other hand is far too complicated to get into a meaningful discussion about here, but it is a direct result of compression. Other factors affecting predetonation include (but are not limited to) cam timing, over lap, ignition timing, head design, head material, piston dome shape and material. Heat is the by-product of all of the above, not the cause of the detonation. There are a hundred more things we can talk about here relating to detonation. The only point I am trying to make is that, I believe 90cents difference per tank of fuel is worth not having to risk all the detrimental things I listed above. I am speaking from experience of tearing down hundreds of engines and seeing first hand the difference between one that has run 87 in it its whole life and one that had "the good stuff" in it. Before anyone gets pissed remember, this is MY opinion and MY opinion only take from it what you will.
 
Jamieb said:
When you collapse the skirts of your pistons from detonation you can't hear you might think differently. 20 cents a gallon which equates to roughly 90 cents a tank on an fz1 is worth not having the possibility of detonation!
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If that ever happens to me I might reconsider but based on what I know and what I've experienced, I'm happy to continue using what the manufacturer recommends.

Besides, the difference between 87 and 91 up where I live would be about $2-3 a tank. At 80 or so tanks of fuel per year, that's a lot of money! :( Coupled with the fact that an engine not designed to utilize a higher octane fuel, shouldn't that actually leave deposits as a result of the mixture not being fully ignited?
 
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Dustin said:
If that ever happens to me I might reconsider but based on what I know and what I've experienced, I'm happy to continue using what the manufacturer recommends.

Besides, the difference between 87 and 91 up where I live would be about $2-3 a tank. At 80 or so tanks of fuel per year, that's a lot of money! :( Coupled with the fact that an engine not designed to utilize a higher octane fuel, shouldn't that actually leave deposits as a result of the mixture not being fully ignited?
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Your air to fuel ratio is what tells you whether or not you have a complete burn, not the octane of the fuel. The less refined fuel (87) has more impurities in it than the 93 and that is what leads to the deposits. My personal opinion is that the difference in the price (even if it were 2 whole dollars a tank) does not deter me from using it. I have seen firsthand what it can do and prefer not to chance it.
 
Jamieb said:
Your air to fuel ratio is what tells you whether or not you have a complete burn, not the octane of the fuel.
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But when a fuel is more stable under compression & heat (like a higher octane fuel), does that not result in an incomplete burn in a motor that cannot combust the entire mixture in the cycle?

Nice to have a fuel discussion on a forum that actually has interesting info :)
 
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Here in Oz we have:
Regular - 91 @ $136/l
-95 @ $1:39/l
Premium -98 @ $1:46/l

Which one should I be using. I am currently putting 91 in my '03 FZ 1.
 
The lowest one, of course. What is your altitude?

The higher you are in altitude, the lower octane you need because the air pressure is reduced.

Also, your FZ1 was designed and tuned with regular gas. Look underneath your seat you'll find infos about it. It's useless to put premium fuel, it won't burn it correctly.
 
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Jamieb said:
Your air to fuel ratio is what tells you whether or not you have a complete burn, not the octane of the fuel. The less refined fuel (87) has more impurities in it than the 93 and that is what leads to the deposits. My personal opinion is that the difference in the price (even if it were 2 whole dollars a tank) does not deter me from using it. I have seen firsthand what it can do and prefer not to chance it.
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ARF is actual the mass of air (not volume of air) to the amount of fuel taken into the motor. AFR does not tell you if you have complete burn, however the % of CO will tell you if you have complete burn. Usually 4% to 5% CO indicates complete burn. AFR is an after the fact calulation, or an interpritation of exhaust data, whereas % of CO is actual data.

Regular gas is not impure, or less pure that Super, it simply has a lower octane. From brand to brand there are different cleaning additives, Chevron Techron for example, and some are better than others.

Most gasoline companies have their oil refined by a hand full of companies in the US, Tesoro for example. They specify what additives they want in the fuel. So a batch of Diamond Shamrock could be refined in the same place as Exxon.

Regular Versus Premium Gasoline

If you wish to run Super it is your call but to say that running regular will damage a motor is totally false.
 
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You're right, premium gasoline is made for higher compression motor that absolutely NEEDs 91+ octane fuel in order to run.

The answer is simple : Look in your owners manual, put the fuel they recommend. After all, they are the ones who created your motor... Putting premium fuel in a regular fuel tuned motor is a complete waste. In fact, it's worst because the motor don't need the extra octane...

PS : For your information, I did check fuel consumption Regular (87) VS Premium (91) on my FZ1 and I did lose about 3-4 MPG when I was burning premium fuel
 
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The Australian owners manual must be a bit different to the USA one, on page 3-16 it says - Your Yamaha engine has been designed to use regular gasoline with a research octane number of 91 or higher.If knocking[or pinging] occurs,use a gasoline of a different brand or premium unleaded fuel. So I guess its up to you what octane your happier with. On a different subject oil ,page 6-11 it says -Do not use oils with a diesel specification of Cd or oil of a higher guality than specified.[another can of worms]
 
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fisherman322 said:
The Australian owners manual must be a bit different to the USA one, on page 3-16 it says - Your Yamaha engine has been designed to use regular gasoline with a research octane number of 91 or higher.If knocking[or pinging] occurs,use a gasoline of a different brand or premium unleaded fuel. So I guess its up to you what octane your happier with. On a different subject oil ,page 6-11 it says -Do not use oils with a diesel specification of Cd or oil of a higher guality than specified.[another can of worms]
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It's down to the different octane ratings:

Research Octane Number (RON)
The most common type of octane rating worldwide is the Research Octane Number (RON). RON is determined by running the fuel in a test engine with a variable compression ratio under controlled conditions, and comparing the results with those for mixtures of iso-octane and n-heptane.
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Anti-Knock Index (AKI)
In most countries, including Australia and all of those in Europe, the "headline" octane rating shown on the pump is the RON, but in Canada, the United States and some other countries, like Brazil, the headline number is the average of the RON and the MON, called the Anti-Knock Index (AKI, and often written on pumps as (R+M)/2). It may also sometimes be called the Pump Octane Number (PON).
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Our octane ratings are different so your low-grade 91 is equivalent of our 87 and so on.
 
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